Re: ''U NJEMAČKOJ PRORADIO FUZIJSKI REAKTOR Vodi prema beskonačnom i čistom izvoru energije, a radi s 'preciznošću bez presedana' ''

by Guest 6/12/2016, 22:04

Leviathan2 wrote:inace gratis energija postoji, i izmisljeno je njeno dobivanje, al jbga, koga to zanima

postoji, dolazi sa sunca svaki dan u obliku EM zračenja, oko 1kW po metru kvadratnom, od toga se 25% može makismalno iskoristiti sa fotonaponskim ćelijama jer je toliki dio spektra pri kojem one djeluju, ostalih 75% je toplina i ultraljubičasto područje

u usporedbi s naftom to je jako sirmašan izvor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

by Guest 4/2/2017, 21:12

marcellus wrote:
marcellus wrote:"Another misleading article by the Journalist Idiocracy. W7-X’s greatest accomplishment is actually behind it: The most impressive thing about this project is that the components could actually be fabricated and assembled. (Princeton PPL abandoned as hopeless its recent stellarator construction.)

Regardless of how W7-X performs, no-one will ever build a larger one because no-one can. As far as performance is concerned, fusion neutron production in stellarators has always been so low it’s generally not measured, and rarely reported. Even if W7-X eventually “works” as hoped for, it will produce fusion parameters only comparable with those of tokamaks of the late 1970’s— 35+ years ago. This stellarator is a $1.5 billion toy for theoreticians, a triumph of Academia over common sense."

ako je nekom promaklo o čemu se tu radi....

radi se o instrumentu za mjerenje i dokazivanje teorijskih postavki o fuziji, ne o spravi za proizvodnju energije. Tehnološki, nema nikakvih izgleda da se napravi išta što bi proizvodilo više energije nego što troši u ovom trenutku, niti u bilo kojem u doglednoj budućnosti - jednostavno, za to nemamo tehnoloških pretpostavki.

A i kad bi tako nešto bilo izvedivo, kw struje bi koštao više nego da je bankovni manageri proizvode okretanjem pedala...

da ovo je bio samo eksperiment.no ezek se vec malo prerano obradovao,inace vrlo dobar projekt,pod pretpostavkom da uspije proizvodio bi puno vise energije i nebi bilo glavobolje oko nuklearnog otpada,no postoji tu dosta problema oko toga,trenutno nekoliko zemalja vrse zajednicki eksperiment u Francuskoj oko toga a Lockheed Martins i zasebno

by Guest 4/2/2017, 21:14

by Ringo10 5/2/2017, 09:04

Do fuzije u praktičnoj primjeni ćemo se još načekati odprilike nekih 40 do 50 godinica.

by neva 5/2/2017, 10:49

možda ne baš pola stoljeća, ako sve bude išlo kako je planirano.. iako rijetko tako ide :/

In the ITER offices around the world, the exact sequence of assembly events has been carefully orchestrated and coordinated. The first large components began arriving in 2015.

Main construction milestones:
2006              Signature of the ITER Agreement
2007-2009     Land clearing and levelling

2010-2014     Ground support structure and seismic foundations for the Tokamak

2014-2021     Construction of the Tokamak Building (access for first assembly activities in 2019)

2010-2021     Construction of the ITER plant and auxiliary buildings for First Plasma

2018-2025     Assembly phase 1

Dec 2025       First Plasma
https://www.iter.org/

It's now official: First Plasma in December 2025

https://www.iter.org/newsline/-/2482

by Guest 5/2/2017, 10:53

Kako smo vec rekli,nije problem plazmu proizvesti,nego dovoljno stabilno magnetsko polje na toj temperaturi(10 milijuna gradiii),koje ce plazmu drzati podalje stranica reaktora..
Uostalom gledali ste Spajdermen kako to biva..na kraju veliki buuuum..!!!!

by Guest 5/2/2017, 10:58

Citam onaj projekt u Francuskoj odlozen za 10 godina

by Guest 5/2/2017, 11:23

Tehnoloski jos postoje nepremostivi problemi...

by Guest 5/2/2017, 11:23

red fuk se vec poveselio cat

by Yehudi 5/2/2017, 12:18

deda wrote:
marcellus wrote:
deda wrote:u članku piše da su stvorili jednoliko magnetno polje, a ne da su pokrenuli fuziju
pokrenut će i fuziju na mikrorazini, samo ne takvu koja proizvodi više energije nego troši...
a za pokretanje fuzije koja bi mogla proizvesti energiju za sad nema planova, novca, niti tehnologije koja bi to omogućila.
a i da ima, ta energija bi koštala malo previše...
uglavnom, priča je "komercijalne energije iz fuzije neće biti idućih 50 godina", što je priča koju slušamo već 50 godina, otkad ja pamtim. U stvarnom svijetu, to znači "nikad, kako sad stoje stvari"

problem nije do fuzije koliko do materijala od kojih bi se trebao izgraditi takav reaktor

trenutno nemamo materijale koji bi mogli duže vrijeme izdržati na temperaturama od par milijuna kelvina i visokom zračenju, zato ih pale na djelić sekunde i odmah gase

2016 Hydrogen plasma at 80×10^6 K for 0.25 s

Jasno je da ne kužite ništa o temi koju komentirate.

Naime -Plazma - se NE nalazi u nekoj čaši niti tanjuru, loncu sa poklopcem

već se fuzija obavlja u magnetnom polju

znači bez dodira sa stijenkama bilo kakvog materijala..............lebdi u magnetnom polju

mada razvija veće temperature nego na površini Sunca.

by crvenkasti 5/2/2017, 12:45

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/06/fusion-megaproject-confirms-5-year-delay-trims-costs

U ovako ogromnim projektima u koje je uključeno stotine kooperanata i koji ovise o mnogim faktorima kašnjenje je neizbježno. Projekt košta više milijardi dolara i mnogo komponetnti se razvija odvojeno po raznim zemljama. Sve zajedno treba uklopiti i često su pojedini koraci ovisni jedni o drugima. Svako kašnjenje u jednom koraku može odgoditi mnoge druge korake. Vrijeme je skupo, i zato ukupni troškovi rastu, iako je uzrok često vezan samo za jednu komponentu,

by Guest 5/2/2017, 13:48

''U NJEMAČKOJ PRORADIO FUZIJSKI REAKTOR Vodi prema beskonačnom i čistom izvoru energije, a radi s 'preciznošću bez presedana' '' - Page 3 ITER%20central%20tokamak%20area

Construction of ITER’s central tokamak area is in full swing; first fusion is now set for 2025.

Fusion megaproject confirms 5-year delay, trims costs

By Daniel CleryJun. 16, 2016 , 4:00 PM

The ITER fusion reactor will fire up for the first time in December 2025, the €18-billion project’s governing council confirmed today. The date for “first plasma” is 5 years later than under the old schedule, and to get there the council is asking the project partners—China, the European Union, India, Japan, Russia, South Korea, and the United States—to cough up an extra €4 billion ($4.5 billion).
“It is expected, if there are no objections, that we can approve [the schedule] by November and then we can move forward,” says ITER director general Bernard Bigot.
ITER aims to show that it is feasible to fuse hydrogen nuclei together to form helium and thereby release enough excess energy to make a viable source of power. To achieve that requires heating two hydrogen isotopes—deuterium (D) and tritium (T)—to temperatures above 100 million degrees Celsius. ITER will feature an enormous vessel to contain the D-T plasma, powerful superconducting magnets to confine it, and elaborate particle accelerators and microwave generators to heat it.

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The international consortium that is building the reactor has parceled out the construction work to hundreds of companies across the globe. But the sheer complexity of the effort has led to delays and cost increases as researchers sought to finalize the design, maintain standards, and get the million-plus components delivered on time to the reactor site at Cadarache, France.
Bigot was brought on in March 2015 to get the project back on track. He presented a revised schedule to the council last November, pushing back the first plasma from 2020 to 2025 and asking for an additional €4.6 billion for staff and equipment. The council asked an independent panel to review the schedule and asked ITER management to cut costs. The panel declared in April that the 2025 goal is technically feasible but warned that there was no slack in case of unexpected problems.
The council meeting yesterday and today rubberstamped the 2025 target and accepted a price tag of slightly under €4 billion, down by €600 million. Managers shaved off some of the cost of reaching first plasma by delaying the construction of some components—ones that aren’t needed for early experiments—until later dates. ITER staff is now working on a staged approach in which a few years of experiments are followed by upgrades, then more experiments and more upgrades, and so on. Early studies will use only hydrogen or deuterium for simplicity, leaving the radioactive tritium for later.
That may end up delaying the first D-T experiments and increasing the overall cost, but “it reduces annual cost for the partners and it was supported by all of them,” Bigot says. “They all feel more comfortable and there is no rush.” The partners have agreed to the approach in principle while management works out the schedule in more detail. The final decision will be made at the next council meeting in November.
The council also approved a boost in staff by 350 to 1050 and the domestic agencies—bodies in each partner that handle the industrial contracts to build components—will contribute 100 more. The council also agreed to a proposal from the United States for more regular independent reviews of key project aspects, because of considerable opposition to ITER in U.S. Congress. Bigot says these may occur every 6 months and will be tightly focused, covering topics such as the project’s risk assessment and mitigation strategy or whether production of a critical component is moving fast enough.
With agreement coming together on the schedule and cost, “the atmosphere is much more positive now compared with a year ago,” Bigot says. “There is a common will to make this project a success.”

by Brain32 5/2/2017, 13:55

marcellus wrote:
deda wrote:u članku piše da su stvorili jednoliko magnetno polje, a ne da su pokrenuli fuziju

pokrenut će i fuziju na mikrorazini, samo ne takvu koja proizvodi više energije nego troši...

Ahem to nije niti poanta fuzije uostalom - prvi zakon termodinamike

Poanta fuzije je zapravo vrlo standardna znači veći output energije po jedinici težine goriva - ne može običnije i standardnije od toga.
Ono čime se znanstvenici trenutno muče je odnos utroška energije potrebne za očuvanje kritičnosti fuzijskog reaktora u odnosu na količinu energije koju isti može proizvesti.

by Guest 5/2/2017, 14:01

Yehudi wrote:Naime -Plazma - se NE nalazi u nekoj čaši niti tanjuru, loncu sa poklopcem

već se fuzija obavlja u magnetnom polju

znači bez dodira sa stijenkama bilo kakvog materijala..............lebdi u magnetnom polju

mada razvija veće temperature nego na površini Sunca.

Svakako, jer je temperatura površine Sunca svega 5 778 K.
Za razliku od središta Sunca gdje je nekih 15 milijuna stupnjeva C.
Planirana temperatura u postupku vruće fuzije, koja se odvija kako si točno rekao u magnetskom polju, jeste čitavih oko 150 milijuna stupnjeva C (Fizika budućnosti; Michio Kaku; str. 244.) Nema materijala koji neoštećen može izdržati tako visoke temperature, zato magnetsko polje.
I tu je posebno zanimljiva jedna činjenica. Naime, kada bi plazma došla u direktan kontakt sa stijenkama reaktora, proces bi se automatski ugasio, plazma bi se ohladila i tzv. Kineski sindrom je u tom procesu nemoguć pa je tako postupak vruće fuzije mnogo sigurniji od onog koji se odvija kod kontrolirane fisije, gdje je, kada stvari izmaknu kontroli, nokontrolirana reakcija itekako moguća, čega smo bili svjedoci u Černobilu.

by Guest 5/2/2017, 14:17

Navodno i Lockhed Martins ima svoj zasebni projekt,vjerovatno imaju nesto sto ne zele dijeliti sa drugima

by Regoč 5/2/2017, 15:07

marcellus wrote:a triumph of Academia over common sense

Ovo ne treba uzimati kao neko zlo jer bez istraživanjah neće biti ni napretka. Koliko je koštalo istraživanje fizije? Isto, čista teorija prije sto godinah, neisplativo.

by marcellus 5/2/2017, 15:13

Brain32 wrote:
marcellus wrote:
deda wrote:u članku piše da su stvorili jednoliko magnetno polje, a ne da su pokrenuli fuziju

pokrenut će i fuziju na mikrorazini, samo ne takvu koja proizvodi više energije nego troši...
Ahem to nije niti poanta fuzije uostalom - prvi zakon termodinamike

Poanta fuzije je zapravo vrlo standardna znači veći output energije po jedinici težine goriva - ne može običnije i standardnije od toga.
Ono čime se znanstvenici trenutno muče je odnos utroška energije potrebne za očuvanje kritičnosti fuzijskog reaktora u odnosu na količinu energije koju isti može proizvesti.

a to je u prijevodu min. 50 godina

by Regoč 5/2/2017, 15:15

Ček malo. Jel to netko rekao da je ideja proizvoditi više energije nego li se uloži? Ovaj, hm, osnovnoškolska fizika kaže da to ne ide.

by Guest 5/2/2017, 16:00

ITER future and DEMO

The construction and operation of ITER is a complex, long-term project that marks a significant step along the road to a very specific goal: the attainment of fusion power. This long view of the future is a characteristic of the development of fusion energy science and technology that has shown continuous progress while overcoming significant issues.

Beyond ITER

To follow ITER the efficient large-scale production of electricity from fusion and the demonstration of tritium self-sufficiency will be required before commercial fusion power stations can be designed and built.
The successful construction and operation of ITER will be a significant step towards sustainable fusion energy production from fusion. The information, technologies and experience provided by ITER will be crucial to the development of a demonstration power plant (DEMO). The first commercial fusion power plants are set to be established following DEMO.
ITER will prove many of the components required for DEMO. In parallel, advanced fusion materials research will contribute the new materials solutions that will be essential for successful operation of a fusion power plant.
In Japan the International Fusion Materials Irradiation Facility (IFMIF) project has started. An IFMIF facility will be able to test advanced fusion materials in environments that mimic those inside a fusion power reactor.

DEMO

DEMO will generate significant amounts of electricity over extended periods and will be self-sufficient in tritium. It will be designed to produce up to 500 megawatts of electricity which will require a thermal output of around 1500 megawatts. If DEMO is built at roughly the same size as ITER, it will require much higher heat flux through the reactor walls and improved plasma performance.
Research suggests that this performance could be achieved with a 15 % increase in ITER's linear dimensions, and a 30 % increase in the plasma density.
A major challenge will thus be the performance and durability of the breeder blanket technology, and the systems for refuelling and replacing reactor modules during operation.
If DEMO is successful in terms of systems and performance, the DEMO reactor itself could be used as the commercial prototype, creating a 'fast track' to fusion power, perhaps knocking 20 years off the time for the first commercial fusion power to reach the grid.

Commercial fusion Power

The final step will be the construction of a first-of-a-series commercial-sized fusion power reactor. To achieve twice the electrical power output of DEMO (i.e. 1000 megawatts) only a slight increase in reactor size would then be required.

http://ec.europa.eu/research/energy/euratom/index_en.cfm?pg=fusion§ion=iter-future

by Guest 5/2/2017, 16:23

Nista od toga.

U ovom trenutku ne postoji tehnnologija za nista blizu slicnom. Uz vrlo velike napore, covjecanstvo moze samo osmatrati pojave, prirodne ili forsirane, koje bi mogle potvrditi inicijalne hipoteze o, pa hajmo zagrabiti najopcenitije, novim, mocnijim izvorima energije.

Kad bi ovoga trenutka fuzijski reaktor (a kako ezek veli hahahahahahahaha) proradio, migracija na energetske celije i aplikacija u svakodnevnom zivotu bi trajali godinama i godinama, pri cemu bi najprije korist imali veliki sustavi, primarno vojni.

U ovom trenutku napeta je tema proizvodnja racunala sa vodicima koji ne ispustaju toplinu kao visak E, ili ga tocnije ispustaju u zanemarivim kolicinama, e kako bi se proizvelo racunalo kojem ne treba forsirano hladjenje. Superracunalo kojem ne treba sustavno hladjenje i materijali supervodica koji se slabo zagrijavaju (sto ne znaci da ga mozes staviti na naftnu platformu u Nigeriji i ocekivati da nece pregoriti) je recimo jedan od preduvjeta ovakvim izumima kao u naslovu teme.

by Guest 5/2/2017, 16:27

speare_shaker wrote:ITER future and DEMO

The construction and operation of ITER is a complex, long-term project that marks a significant step along the road to a very specific goal: the attainment of fusion power. This long view of the future is a characteristic of the development of fusion energy science and technology that has shown continuous progress while overcoming significant issues.

Beyond ITER

To follow ITER the efficient large-scale production of electricity from fusion and the demonstration of tritium self-sufficiency will be required before commercial fusion power stations can be designed and built.
The successful construction and operation of ITER will be a significant step towards sustainable fusion energy production from fusion. The information, technologies and experience provided by ITER will be crucial to the development of a demonstration power plant (DEMO). The first commercial fusion power plants are set to be established following DEMO.
ITER will prove many of the components required for DEMO. In parallel, advanced fusion materials research will contribute the new materials solutions that will be essential for successful operation of a fusion power plant.
In Japan the International Fusion Materials Irradiation Facility (IFMIF) project has started. An IFMIF facility will be able to test advanced fusion materials in environments that mimic those inside a fusion power reactor.

DEMO

DEMO will generate significant amounts of electricity over extended periods and will be self-sufficient in tritium. It will be designed to produce up to 500 megawatts of electricity which will require a thermal output of around 1500 megawatts. If DEMO is built at roughly the same size as ITER, it will require much higher heat flux through the reactor walls and improved plasma performance.
Research suggests that this performance could be achieved with a 15 % increase in ITER's linear dimensions, and a 30 % increase in the plasma density.
A major challenge will thus be the performance and durability of the breeder blanket technology, and the systems for refuelling and replacing reactor modules during operation.
If DEMO is successful in terms of systems and performance, the DEMO reactor itself could be used as the commercial prototype, creating a 'fast track' to fusion power, perhaps knocking 20 years off the time for the first commercial fusion power to reach the grid.

Commercial fusion Power

The final step will be the construction of a first-of-a-series commercial-sized fusion power reactor. To achieve twice the electrical power output of DEMO (i.e. 1000 megawatts) only a slight increase in reactor size would then be required.

http://ec.europa.eu/research/energy/euratom/index_en.cfm?pg=fusion§ion=iter-future

Da.

Dakle, da se razumijemo, cilj i nije da se zauzda energija fuzije.

Cilj je znanstvenotehnoloska suradnja koja bi dovela do popratnih izuma koji bi imali brzu aplikaciju u civilnom zivotu dok se recimo konstruira DEMO.

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