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Da li je ostavka Benedikta bila dobrovoljna?
by Kermit 20/9/2015, 23:24
[size=36]The Pope Benedict Conspiracy Theories
Two years into his retirement, the former pontiff still faces questions about why he left the Vatican.[/size]
Two years into his retirement, the former pontiff still faces questions about why he left the Vatican.[/size]
Kermit-
Posts : 26479
2014-04-17
Re: Da li je ostavka Benedikta bila dobrovoljna?
by Kermit 20/9/2015, 23:25
For someone once bestowed with the luxury of infallibility, former Pope Benedict XVI is having a unique retirement. Two years after his unprecedented withdrawal from the papacy—well, unprecedented for the last 600 years at least—the erstwhile Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger's resignation remains the subject of speculation.
Two years ago this week, Benedict's announcement that he was stepping down for health reasons shocked the Catholic Church and much of the world. It also loosed conspiracy theorists who believe Benedict was forced to resign. On Wednesday, one of the former pope's top lieutenants defended the 87-year-old's choice.
"That a surrogate of Benedict is still out protecting the pope emeritus in the press speaks to an inherent defensiveness."
"Benedict XVI is convinced that the decision that he took and communicated was right," Monsignor Georg Gaenswein told the Italian daily Corriere della Sera. "He has no doubts."
The statement, when read closely, could be meaningful for two reasons. That a surrogate of Benedict is still out protecting the pope emeritus in the press might speak to an inherent defensiveness (though a reporter's questions could easily have prompted it). Then, there is the theory of his "forced resignation," which would invalidate the election of Pope Francis. "Church law says a pope's resignation is valid only if he takes the decision in full freedom and without pressure from others," Reuters noted last year.
Two years ago this week, Benedict's announcement that he was stepping down for health reasons shocked the Catholic Church and much of the world. It also loosed conspiracy theorists who believe Benedict was forced to resign. On Wednesday, one of the former pope's top lieutenants defended the 87-year-old's choice.
"That a surrogate of Benedict is still out protecting the pope emeritus in the press speaks to an inherent defensiveness."
"Benedict XVI is convinced that the decision that he took and communicated was right," Monsignor Georg Gaenswein told the Italian daily Corriere della Sera. "He has no doubts."
The statement, when read closely, could be meaningful for two reasons. That a surrogate of Benedict is still out protecting the pope emeritus in the press might speak to an inherent defensiveness (though a reporter's questions could easily have prompted it). Then, there is the theory of his "forced resignation," which would invalidate the election of Pope Francis. "Church law says a pope's resignation is valid only if he takes the decision in full freedom and without pressure from others," Reuters noted last year.
Kermit-
Posts : 26479
2014-04-17
Re: Da li je ostavka Benedikta bila dobrovoljna?
by Kermit 20/9/2015, 23:25
The circumstances surrounding Benedict's decision to step down have titillated scholars and the journalists alike, especially given the fact that his resignation came not long after the "Vatileaks" scandal. The release of internal Vatican memos, by some accounts, revealed how Benedict's efforts to reform the church, like provide transparency on the global sex abuse scandal and the management of the Vatican bank, were undercut by internal politics. Writing in The Washington Post in 2013, Jason Horowitz summed up how the leaks might affect Benedict's legacy:
In a letter to Vatican Insider last year, one of Benedict's only public statements since his resignation, he stressed again that there "is absolutely no doubt regarding the validity of my resignation." Doth he protest too much?
Some of the talk that Benedict was forced out starts there. In the Italian media, as Reuters relayed, the leak itself was portrayed as proof that "that a faction of prelates who wanted to discredit Benedict and pressure him to resign was behind the leaks." Writing for The Atlantic, Paul Elie noted that Benedict still wears white—"the papal vestments sans cape and sash"—which others have taken as a signal that the pope emeritus still feels a bit like the pontiff. And last month, according to the AP, a retired Kazakh archbishop joined the chorus of those who say Benedict didn't choose to go."It showed how Benedict, a weak manager who may most be remembered for the way in which he left office, was no match for a culture that rejected even a modicum of transparency and preferred a damage-control campaign that diverted attention from the institution’s fundamental problems."
In a letter to Vatican Insider last year, one of Benedict's only public statements since his resignation, he stressed again that there "is absolutely no doubt regarding the validity of my resignation." Doth he protest too much?
Kermit-
Posts : 26479
2014-04-17
Re: Da li je ostavka Benedikta bila dobrovoljna?
by Kermit 20/9/2015, 23:26
Last month, retired Kazakh Archbishop Jan Pawel Lenga wrote an open letter claiming, without evidence, that Benedict's resignation was forced.
Kermit-
Posts : 26479
2014-04-17
Re: Da li je ostavka Benedikta bila dobrovoljna?
by Kermit 20/9/2015, 23:27
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_leaks_scandal
Kermit-
Posts : 26479
2014-04-17
Re: Da li je ostavka Benedikta bila dobrovoljna?
by dijagram 20/9/2015, 23:27
Asko sve redom demontira:)
dijagram-
Posts : 18696
2015-08-09
Re: Da li je ostavka Benedikta bila dobrovoljna?
by Kermit 20/9/2015, 23:31
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/pope-benedict-xvis-leaked-documents-show-fractured-vatican-full-of-rivalries/2013/02/16/23ce0280-76c2-11e2-8f84-3e4b513b1a13_story.html
VATICAN CITY — Guests at the going-away party for Carlo Maria Viganò couldn’t understand why the archbishop looked so forlorn. Pope Benedict XVI had appointed Viganò ambassador to the United States, a plum post where he would settle into a stately mansion on Massachusetts Avenue, across the street from the vice president’s residence.
“He went through the ordeal making it very clear he was unhappy with it,” said one former ambassador to the Vatican, who attended the Vatican Gardens ceremony in the late summer of 2011. “And we just couldn’t figure out, us outsiders and non-Italians, what was going on.”
There was no such confusion within Vatican walls. Benedict had installed Viganò to enact a series of reforms within the Vatican. But some of Rome’s highest-ranking cardinals undercut the efforts and hastened Viganò’s exile to the United States.
Viganò’s plight and other unflattering machinations would soon become public in an unprecedented leak of the pontiff’s personal correspondence. Much of the media — and the Vatican — focused on the source of the shocking security breach. Largely lost were the revelations contained in the letters themselves — tales of rivalry and betrayal, and allegations of corruption and systemic dysfunction that infused the inner workings of the Holy See and the eight-year papacy of Benedict XVI. Last week, he announced that he will become the first pope in nearly 600 years to resign.
The next pope may bring with him an invigorating connection to the Southern Hemisphere, a media magnetism or better leadership skills than the shy and cerebral Benedict. But whoever he may be, the 266th pope will inherit a gerontocracy obsessed with turf and Italian politics, uninterested in basic management practices and hostile to reforms.
VATICAN CITY — Guests at the going-away party for Carlo Maria Viganò couldn’t understand why the archbishop looked so forlorn. Pope Benedict XVI had appointed Viganò ambassador to the United States, a plum post where he would settle into a stately mansion on Massachusetts Avenue, across the street from the vice president’s residence.
“He went through the ordeal making it very clear he was unhappy with it,” said one former ambassador to the Vatican, who attended the Vatican Gardens ceremony in the late summer of 2011. “And we just couldn’t figure out, us outsiders and non-Italians, what was going on.”
There was no such confusion within Vatican walls. Benedict had installed Viganò to enact a series of reforms within the Vatican. But some of Rome’s highest-ranking cardinals undercut the efforts and hastened Viganò’s exile to the United States.
Viganò’s plight and other unflattering machinations would soon become public in an unprecedented leak of the pontiff’s personal correspondence. Much of the media — and the Vatican — focused on the source of the shocking security breach. Largely lost were the revelations contained in the letters themselves — tales of rivalry and betrayal, and allegations of corruption and systemic dysfunction that infused the inner workings of the Holy See and the eight-year papacy of Benedict XVI. Last week, he announced that he will become the first pope in nearly 600 years to resign.
The next pope may bring with him an invigorating connection to the Southern Hemisphere, a media magnetism or better leadership skills than the shy and cerebral Benedict. But whoever he may be, the 266th pope will inherit a gerontocracy obsessed with turf and Italian politics, uninterested in basic management practices and hostile to reforms.
Kermit-
Posts : 26479
2014-04-17
Re: Da li je ostavka Benedikta bila dobrovoljna?
by Kermit 20/9/2015, 23:32
VatiLeaks, as the scandal came to be known, dragged the fusty institution into the wild WikiLeaks era. It exposed the church bureaucracy’s entrenched opposition to Benedict’s fledgling effort to carve out a legacy as a reformer against the backdrop of aglobal child sex abuse scandal and the continued dwindling of his flock.
It showed how Benedict, a weak manager who may most be remembered for the way in which he left office, was no match for a culture that rejected even a modicum of transparency and preferred a damage-control campaign that diverted attention from the institution’s fundamental problems. Interviews in Rome with dozens of church officials, Vatican insiders and foreign government officials close to the church, many of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of retribution, mapped out that hermetic universe.
It showed how Benedict, a weak manager who may most be remembered for the way in which he left office, was no match for a culture that rejected even a modicum of transparency and preferred a damage-control campaign that diverted attention from the institution’s fundamental problems. Interviews in Rome with dozens of church officials, Vatican insiders and foreign government officials close to the church, many of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of retribution, mapped out that hermetic universe.
Kermit-
Posts : 26479
2014-04-17
Re: Da li je ostavka Benedikta bila dobrovoljna?
by Kermit 20/9/2015, 23:32
“We can reveal the face of the church and how this face is, at times, disfigured,” Benedict said in his final homily on Ash Wednesday. “I am thinking in particular of the sins against the unity of the church, of the divisions in the body of the church.” He called for his ministry to overcome “individualism” and “rivalry,” saying they were only for those “who have distanced themselves from the faith.”
A radical transformation of the culture is unlikely. “We’re talking about people who have given their life to this institution, but at the same time the institution has become their life,” said one senior Vatican official. “Unlike parish priests, who have the personal rewards that come with everyday contact, their lot is not as human. It’s bureaucratic, but it becomes all-consuming.”
The entire debacle, he said, “wasn’t a communications crisis. It was a management crisis.”
A radical transformation of the culture is unlikely. “We’re talking about people who have given their life to this institution, but at the same time the institution has become their life,” said one senior Vatican official. “Unlike parish priests, who have the personal rewards that come with everyday contact, their lot is not as human. It’s bureaucratic, but it becomes all-consuming.”
The entire debacle, he said, “wasn’t a communications crisis. It was a management crisis.”
Kermit-
Posts : 26479
2014-04-17
Re: Da li je ostavka Benedikta bila dobrovoljna?
by Kermit 20/9/2015, 23:37
hahaha pa da onaj batler jebeni šta je utekao sa papirima
Kermit-
Posts : 26479
2014-04-17
Re: Da li je ostavka Benedikta bila dobrovoljna?
by Kermit 20/9/2015, 23:40
On 17 December 2012 the Pope received a report on "Vatican lobbies" prepared by cardinals Julián Herranz, Salvatore De Giorgi, a former archbishop of Palermo, and Jozef Tomko.[23] Vatican spokesman Fr.Federico Lombardi, speaking on Vatican Radio on 23 February 2013, strongly criticized media coverage[4][24] of the report [25] as a financial scandal which purportedly became, upon the cardinals' internal investigation, a gay sex and blackmail scandal as well.[26]
Although the dossier was available only to Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI and the investigators themselves, the latter were free to discuss the results of their investigation with the Cardinal electors of the March 2013 Papal Conclave, and the dossier itself was to have been given to Benedict's successor as Pope, Francis.[27] On 1 March 2013, Fr. Lombardi reported that "two or three phones" had been tapped.[28][29]
On 12 June 2013 it was reported that leaked notes of a private conversation between Pope Francis and Catholic officials at the Latin American Conference of Religious (CLAR) confirmed the existence of "a stream of corruption", and that "The 'gay lobby' is mentioned, and it is true, it is there … We need to see what we can do". According to The Economist "Vatican investigators had identified a network of gay prelates".[30]CLAR confirmed that its leaders had written a synopsis of the pope's remarks, although not for publication. Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi made no comment on the remarks made in "a private meeting".
Although the dossier was available only to Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI and the investigators themselves, the latter were free to discuss the results of their investigation with the Cardinal electors of the March 2013 Papal Conclave, and the dossier itself was to have been given to Benedict's successor as Pope, Francis.[27] On 1 March 2013, Fr. Lombardi reported that "two or three phones" had been tapped.[28][29]
On 12 June 2013 it was reported that leaked notes of a private conversation between Pope Francis and Catholic officials at the Latin American Conference of Religious (CLAR) confirmed the existence of "a stream of corruption", and that "The 'gay lobby' is mentioned, and it is true, it is there … We need to see what we can do". According to The Economist "Vatican investigators had identified a network of gay prelates".[30]CLAR confirmed that its leaders had written a synopsis of the pope's remarks, although not for publication. Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi made no comment on the remarks made in "a private meeting".
Kermit-
Posts : 26479
2014-04-17
Re: Da li je ostavka Benedikta bila dobrovoljna?
by Kermit 20/9/2015, 23:41
http://www.economist.com/news/international/21582553-pope-wows-brazil-battlesand-trapslie-home-style-and-substance
What particularly caught the headlines was a notably non-judgmental remark about homosexuality. Francis also said gays should be “integrated” not marginalised. Though the generous tone (as with his remarks about women’s service to the church) was new, he stressed that church teaching is unaltered. Yet this is more subtle than outsiders sometimes appreciate. The catechism deplores homosexual acts, terming them “objectively disordered”, but it also forthrightly condemns all signs of discrimination against homosexuals, saying they “must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity”.
The intriguing aspect of his remark, however, was the question that prompted it: about Monsignor Battista Ricca, appointed by Francis in June to perhaps the most sensitive job in the Vatican, the Prelate of the Institute for the Works of Religion (IOR), popularly known as the Vatican bank. He will be the pope’s eyes and ears in an outfit that has besmirched the image of the papacy, and which Francis seems set on overhauling. He has since named one commission to scrutinise the IOR and another to look at the overall management of the Vatican’s finances.
Now many wonder if Francis was set up—perhaps deliberately misinformed about his choice. Shortly before he left Rome L’Espresso, a newsweekly, reported that Monsignor Ricca’s time as a Vatican diplomat in Uruguay had been beset by scandal. It said he had arrived with a gay lover whom he had housed and employed; that he had been beaten up in a gay bar, and caught in the middle of the night with a young male prostitute. Though strongly denied, the claims would, if true, deal a blow to Francis’s plans for reform of the curial administration.
What particularly caught the headlines was a notably non-judgmental remark about homosexuality. Francis also said gays should be “integrated” not marginalised. Though the generous tone (as with his remarks about women’s service to the church) was new, he stressed that church teaching is unaltered. Yet this is more subtle than outsiders sometimes appreciate. The catechism deplores homosexual acts, terming them “objectively disordered”, but it also forthrightly condemns all signs of discrimination against homosexuals, saying they “must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity”.
The intriguing aspect of his remark, however, was the question that prompted it: about Monsignor Battista Ricca, appointed by Francis in June to perhaps the most sensitive job in the Vatican, the Prelate of the Institute for the Works of Religion (IOR), popularly known as the Vatican bank. He will be the pope’s eyes and ears in an outfit that has besmirched the image of the papacy, and which Francis seems set on overhauling. He has since named one commission to scrutinise the IOR and another to look at the overall management of the Vatican’s finances.
Now many wonder if Francis was set up—perhaps deliberately misinformed about his choice. Shortly before he left Rome L’Espresso, a newsweekly, reported that Monsignor Ricca’s time as a Vatican diplomat in Uruguay had been beset by scandal. It said he had arrived with a gay lover whom he had housed and employed; that he had been beaten up in a gay bar, and caught in the middle of the night with a young male prostitute. Though strongly denied, the claims would, if true, deal a blow to Francis’s plans for reform of the curial administration.
Kermit-
Posts : 26479
2014-04-17
Re: Da li je ostavka Benedikta bila dobrovoljna?
by Kermit 20/9/2015, 23:42
[ltr][size=32]In the wake of several high-profile and salacious scandals alleging corruption and sexual politics inside the Vatican, Rome was rocked again Thursday by an Italian magazine's claims of an extensive program of secret wiretapping and surveillance inside the holy city-state.
Panorama magazine claimed that Vatican authorities tapped phone calls and read the emails of Church officials as part of an investigation into the so-called Vatileaks scandal, according to a translation by The Telegraph.
The damaging Vatileaks affair came to a head in May of 2012, when then-Pope Benedict's butler Paolo Gabriele was arrested and charged with leaking hundreds of internal documents to journalists. On Monday, the Vatican said the Vatileaks investigation report results were to remain confidential, a step unlikely to quell the rampant speculation and rumors swirling about its contents.
Panorama's Vatican expert, Ignazio Ingrao, called the Vatican's clandestine efforts "a sort of Vatican Big Brother" operation, adding, "Everyone was spied on in the Vatican," according to The Telegraph. Panorama also alleged the wiretapping is ongoing.
Reuters reported on Thursday, Benedict's last day in office, that the Vatican admitted there may have been wiretapping, but only on a small scale.
Speaking at a press conference, Vatican spokesperson the Rev. Federico Lombardi insisted that Panorama had grossly exaggerated the issue.
"There may have been some wiretaps and controls ordered by the investigating magistrate, but I can assure you it was not on a large scale," Lombardi said, according to the Los Angeles Times. "Two to three phones were tapped."
The LA Times also reported that the Vatican denied Panorama's claim that the wiretapping was ordered by Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican's former Secretary of State and then Pope's right hand man.
Lombardi said if wiretapping was authorized, it was ordered by magistrates and not by Bertone, according to The New York Times. The spokesperson went on to denounce reports of distrust among Vatican officials.
The idea of “an investigation that creates an atmosphere of fear of mistrust that will now affect the conclave has no foundation in reality,” he said, according to The New York Times.
While a date has not been set for the papal conclave that will pick Pope Emeritus Benedict's successor, the secretive election process is expected to start sometime in the next two weeks.
[/size][/ltr]
Panorama magazine claimed that Vatican authorities tapped phone calls and read the emails of Church officials as part of an investigation into the so-called Vatileaks scandal, according to a translation by The Telegraph.
The damaging Vatileaks affair came to a head in May of 2012, when then-Pope Benedict's butler Paolo Gabriele was arrested and charged with leaking hundreds of internal documents to journalists. On Monday, the Vatican said the Vatileaks investigation report results were to remain confidential, a step unlikely to quell the rampant speculation and rumors swirling about its contents.
Panorama's Vatican expert, Ignazio Ingrao, called the Vatican's clandestine efforts "a sort of Vatican Big Brother" operation, adding, "Everyone was spied on in the Vatican," according to The Telegraph. Panorama also alleged the wiretapping is ongoing.
Reuters reported on Thursday, Benedict's last day in office, that the Vatican admitted there may have been wiretapping, but only on a small scale.
Speaking at a press conference, Vatican spokesperson the Rev. Federico Lombardi insisted that Panorama had grossly exaggerated the issue.
"There may have been some wiretaps and controls ordered by the investigating magistrate, but I can assure you it was not on a large scale," Lombardi said, according to the Los Angeles Times. "Two to three phones were tapped."
The LA Times also reported that the Vatican denied Panorama's claim that the wiretapping was ordered by Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican's former Secretary of State and then Pope's right hand man.
Lombardi said if wiretapping was authorized, it was ordered by magistrates and not by Bertone, according to The New York Times. The spokesperson went on to denounce reports of distrust among Vatican officials.
The idea of “an investigation that creates an atmosphere of fear of mistrust that will now affect the conclave has no foundation in reality,” he said, according to The New York Times.
While a date has not been set for the papal conclave that will pick Pope Emeritus Benedict's successor, the secretive election process is expected to start sometime in the next two weeks.
[/size][/ltr]
Kermit-
Posts : 26479
2014-04-17
Re: Da li je ostavka Benedikta bila dobrovoljna?
by Kermit 20/9/2015, 23:42
dijagram wrote:Asko sve redom demontira:)
zanimljivo ovo u vezi pape, što više čitaš više kontroverzi
Kermit-
Posts : 26479
2014-04-17
Re: Da li je ostavka Benedikta bila dobrovoljna?
by dijagram 21/9/2015, 00:01
Cudni su putevi gospodnji, il kako vec ide:)asilovski wrote:dijagram wrote:Asko sve redom demontira:)
dijagram-
Posts : 18696
2015-08-09
Re: Da li je ostavka Benedikta bila dobrovoljna?
by Kermit 21/9/2015, 00:02
Zanimljivo nema analize ili osvrta na ostavku pape, osim toga on je živ a nitko ne ide da pravi neki intervju sa njimedijagram wrote:Cudni su putevi gospodnji, il kako vec ide:)asilovski wrote:dijagram wrote:Asko sve redom demontira:)
Kermit-
Posts : 26479
2014-04-17
Re: Da li je ostavka Benedikta bila dobrovoljna?
by dijagram 21/9/2015, 00:04
Nista dok ga aca ne razmontira u dva sata.asilovski wrote:Zanimljivo nema analize ili osvrta na ostavku pape, osim toga on je živ a nitko ne ide da pravi neki intervju sa njimedijagram wrote:Cudni su putevi gospodnji, il kako vec ide:)asilovski wrote:dijagram wrote:Asko sve redom demontira:)
dijagram-
Posts : 18696
2015-08-09
Re: Da li je ostavka Benedikta bila dobrovoljna?
by Kermit 21/9/2015, 00:07
i vidim i zdrav iako su rekli da je gotov
Kermit-
Posts : 26479
2014-04-17
Re: Da li je ostavka Benedikta bila dobrovoljna?
by dijagram 21/9/2015, 00:08
ma kakvi gotov, dzrim da ce prije ovaj aktualni nego on...to ce biti onako, povijesna zanimljivostasilovski wrote:i vidim i zdrav iako su rekli da je gotov
dijagram-
Posts : 18696
2015-08-09
Re: Da li je ostavka Benedikta bila dobrovoljna?
by Guest 21/9/2015, 00:12
Dobro, to je stvar o kojoj malo ljudi zna pravu istinu - i ti ljudi znaju sutjeti. Zapravo je Bergoglio bio snazan kandidat jos 2004, ali je Ratzinger imao snazan autoritet i neumoran lobby iza sebe, pa je pobijedio, ali koliko sam citao, to je bila puno zesca bitka od ocekivane. Ipak, vodio je Crkvu sukladno ocekivanjima kakva se stavljaju pred moralni autotitet Sv. Oca, osudjivao je liberalizam, permisivnost, rodnu ideologiju, kulturu smrti i dekristijanizaciju Zapada. Uveo je Godinu reevangelizacije. Papa Franjo, to je svakome jasno, susta je suprotnost po stilu i nazorima.
Da li je Benedikt morao odstupiti? Bio je svakako pod jakim pritiskom, medija i javnosti, koja je trazila osobu koja komunicira sa skupinama koje su obicno u klincu sa vjerom i Crkvom (gay lobby, socijalisti, liberali, agnostici, razvedeni, itd.).
Pitanje je koliko komunicira sa vrijednostima koje Crkva zagovara stoljecima, katolicima samima, najvise na ugrozenim podrucjima.
Ne mogu mu oprostiti povijesno necuveni zastanak postupka proglasenja Stepinca svetim, na urgiranje Tome Nikolica, cetnickog vojvode. Ne mogu prijeci preko prijezira koji je pokazao prema Medjugorju. Bio je u Sarajevu, etnicki ociscenim od Hrvata i katolika, zeli u Beograd, ali nije pokazao ni najmanju brigu za Hrvate, ponajvise u BiH.
Da li je Benedikt morao odstupiti? Bio je svakako pod jakim pritiskom, medija i javnosti, koja je trazila osobu koja komunicira sa skupinama koje su obicno u klincu sa vjerom i Crkvom (gay lobby, socijalisti, liberali, agnostici, razvedeni, itd.).
Pitanje je koliko komunicira sa vrijednostima koje Crkva zagovara stoljecima, katolicima samima, najvise na ugrozenim podrucjima.
Ne mogu mu oprostiti povijesno necuveni zastanak postupka proglasenja Stepinca svetim, na urgiranje Tome Nikolica, cetnickog vojvode. Ne mogu prijeci preko prijezira koji je pokazao prema Medjugorju. Bio je u Sarajevu, etnicki ociscenim od Hrvata i katolika, zeli u Beograd, ali nije pokazao ni najmanju brigu za Hrvate, ponajvise u BiH.
Guest- Guest
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